The blame game

[THEKATZ*{MEOW}*]

It has begun. Just one day after an erroneous attack by a criminal minded kid, parents and others are calling for the firings of the Police chief and school president at Virginia Tech.  From what I understand they are to have been able to have avoided this terrible act.
Believe me, I feel for those parents and all those kids but the only one to blame is the killer!  Are we so irresponsible to see that?  Sure, things could have been done better but that is the case with any situation. Hind sight is stupid when it blames others for an act of total stupidity such as this.  I am guessing this is social shock.  Otherwise why would anyone blame others for this?
I have a police background and I know many police officers.  At the level I work I have contact with officers daily.  There is no conspiracy, no cop wants this kind of outcome and if it could have been done better to have avoided this out come, they wish they would have done it. Trust me, there will be a few officers wishing that they had done something different. Many sleepless nights for some of these officers wishing they had done something different. No one in their right mind would want the outcome such as this. We don’t know the whole story but we need not point fingers at those that were not responsible for what goes on in a killers mind.  There is no cure, no magic spell or crystal ball that can make things like this go away or be prevented.
I blame the media for these allegations that influence the parents and others to believe this could have been avoided.
This asshole chained the doors! so no matter what kind of idiot in a loud speaker yelling “Mad man! Run for your lives” would not have made any difference.
Lets focus on the victims, and how we can move on from here rather than the good old American finger pointing that we have learned through the media to do.

TK

[INSTINCT]

WELL MY POSITION ON GUN CONTROL ASIDE.

something needs to be done about our propensity to direct savage murder against schools and school children, why is a group of innocent children
always a favorite target?.. we need to do an indepth investigation as to why assholes target schools of all the other "possible victims" why is it always a school
full of kids that is seen on the radar of mental idiots and murderers?..

do we need armed gaurds at every learning institution in america ??...if so we are in a sorry state indeed , we will need to watch who we call savages , since i dont hear these type of things happening in other modern societies.

after the inquest i think we will see that it is the campus administration that is the broken link here..and a piss poor emergency plan.

you know i remember fire drills and the good old get under your desk drills in school when i was growing up....do we now need to drill for mad gunmen?
or drill for armed intruders?...given the disaster at the beslan school in russia i think we do...as sad a situation as that is i think we must train teachers and
school admins to respond to gunmen attacks on kids..and likewise train kids on what to do or not do in case of this.

as far as police are concerned i dont think any blame can or will be assigned , rural police and police from sparse areas dont really have dedicated swat teams
like big cities do, as i understand it , several groups of sheriffs or cops need to assemble to form a TAC squad in rural areas , this takes time and is not workable in lone mad man situations , what was and is needed is direct action against any gunman , better prepare lone cops and partnered cops to engage
at will any deemed threat to children, every cop car should have , ballistic helmets,body armor , and MP5's in the trunk , so that responding cops can engage right away.

arm school pricipals???...this measure was thought of in russia after the beslan incident and i think it is now so...
here in america this contradicts our free learning society and our natural aversion to conflicts of interest regarding academics and weapons...but i think it is time that we think  long and hard about the real world threats to our kids ...and put principals or any other physically qualified staff member through emergency armed self defense training ...and issue vest and a 92fs to a school officer.

[NighEve*{MEOW}*]

Nowadays no one wants to take the responsibility for their actions.  What does that have to do with this?  Several years ago we had a tragic event in our family and lost a family member to an accidental shootiing.   Looking back we all blamed ourselves and still do, for the "if onlies".  If I had only done this or that.  When the finger pointing started it tore the family apart with the "if only you".  None of us handled it well including and especialy me. Take it from a person who knows, if-onlies" are poison.   

Those poor, poor parents in this tragic event are blaming themselves.  "I should have sent them to this or that school".  Well that not logical so it is easy to blame others. 

So I do understand wanting a reason for this to happen when the only one that has a "reason" was the  gunman in this case.   The news media will blame and do their own version of "what ifs" and "if onllies".  The problem is, as you say TK, many people will blindly follow their reasoning because they dont think for themselves and dont want to.  it's easier to blame the poor cops, or the "system".  Why?

No one wants to admit that there is evil in this world and man can do evil.  Evil in a fallen world.  We will always have it, put a cop on every cornere and you still will have it.  Learn the workings of the human mind and you will still not understand evil.  We think there has to be a reason. (A brain tumor or drugs, a man shunned by his peers and rejected by his girlfriend).   Many of us go though similar dissapointments as this man did, but we do okay, we at least dont go on a shooting rampage. 

Liberals and progressionist dont like this evil concept.  Evil means WRONG. Evil means its the person's fault.  Evil means there is a God.  Evil fills voids left by morals and responsibility.

He got to the point were it didn't matter.  It didn't matter that all these families would go through this. It dint matter that somewhere in South Korea a family will be impacted.  It didn't matter anymore.  He had no responsibility. He accepted no collective or social responsibility.   Basicaly it is a selfish move. 

We used to collectivly care but all we want is what is ours with no consequences.  We are now in a post-modern, post ethical society where Me is the main thing.  One person objects prayer at a football game and we all do with out it.. What does that tell people? Marrages dont work anymore because people are selfish and more concerned about their selves than others.   It's almost okay to be a sexual deviant because that's what makes that person happy. 

TK works with cops.  Cops see evil and dont understand why courts don't.   Soldiers see evil in Iraq and dont understand why Congress don't.  We want to deny it and explain it away.   We cange words and make tolerance mean my view andno one elses. Tolerance means we toleerate anything as long as we dont say no to anything. 

Bottom line: Evil IS the explaination, not the question. 

[INSTINCT]

im sorry eve i cant agree with you here:

its all too easy to draw lines in the sand and say this or that is evil, while the act itself can be classified as wicked, the man himself was a quiet loner
he didnt just wake up monday morning and become "evil" , his actions are methodic, he purchased a weapon days before, wich indicates a premeditated
plot and is first sign that this man had snapped somehow ,that his ability to reason or his ability to process adult emotions had left him.

why??? however is it always a school at wich these kind of ppl target as an appropriate place to let out rage or mental illness?? what is it about
mass killing of children that somehows seems fit to these ppl?.

unfortunately the moron in the white house too easily paints horrific acts as **evil** or by **evildoers** this absolves us as a society to truthfully
get to the bottom of some very tough and very emotional issues,and removes responsibility personal and collective for ones actions, to characterize
something as an evil act by evildoers is a symptom of a govt unable to really investigate social terrors and then effectively legislate a solution or some sort of
protections against such outbursts of rage.

and these trends will continue in our society unless we collectively fight this and arrive at some sort of protections against the lone nut .or random acts of
violence of such scale, if we continue to paint this as evil , we will solve or fix nothing, we we keep calling this evil forever?

my opinion is no .... we must engage in massive social and political change ,change that allows us to realistically apply solutions to pinpoint and remove
these threats from our children and our populations, IMHO gun control is a first step in this fight, the availablity of a handgun off the shelf is one of the
largest contributors to this sort of violence, a lone looser who can buy a gun is a real threat...but with out the gun he is just a lone looser.

but this is not the only form of protection we must look at , we should look to the protections that isreali outposts have have had to put into place to effectively
combat random and sudden violence especially violence directed at children.

just my 2cents

[Morbius{MEOW}]

Being a small rural area cop, I can tell you that if a situation calls for a SWAT team here, I am looking at a 2 hour arrival time on a good day. Of the four departments that touch eachother here, we usually have only one officer on duty at a pop. One of the neighboring Depts as a second officer on from 8p-4a Sun - thursday and they have two on 4-12 and 12-8 Fri and sat. So on a good day at the right time we have 5 officers. And brace for the killer part - there are only 10 full time officers between the four departments. The rest are PART TIME!! yes believe it or not there is such a creature as a part time cop. And many of them treat it as a part time job. While I do agree with the fact that we should have the equipment available ( though I prefer the AR-15 and you can keep the Beretta. I like my Glock) unfortunately there are not enough officers qualified to use the equipment. basic police training teaches you the side arm and the 12 gauge.  There may be 4 of us in the entire area that know which end of an assault weapon to hold. But that is our political leaders - they believe that there is no reason to purchase assault weapons thus no reason to pay for the training.  So when entry has to be made ( and I have done this on a few occasions) It is a break the door down and hope that you are not out gunned or out numbered.
There is no blame to be assigned except for the one person who made the conscous decision to PULL THE TRIGGER. You cant blame the polcie, you cant blame the admin, but I always like to blame the media for blowing things out of proportion.
The school probable didnt have a plan in effect for " What do ya do if one of the kids turns nutjob and starts shooting???"  In was probably never dreamed of when the emergency plan was put together.
I dunno if there is a perfect solution or not, there is now set plan that will cover every possibility. I think that the media needs to shut up and only report the facts, not what they believe is what should have been done.

[INSTINCT]

QUOTED FROM KOTAKU.

Gaming blog Kotaku has posted excerpts from a Washington Post article which reports that high school friends of the young man responsible for the Virginia Tech massacre, Cho Seung Hui, say he was a fan of the popular videogame Counterstrike.
 
Often in times of senseless tragedy, people desperately attempt to apply order and logic to the chaotic, primordial minefield of violence that can be the disturbed human mind.
 
Everyone wants to know why horrible things happen; it is only natural. Unfortunately, many times, a side effect of wanting to find something or someone to blame is jumping to conclusions and making snap judgments based on ludicrous, pre-existing biases.
 
The media is infamous for this and the tragedy at Virginia Tech two days ago has become the most talked about news story since 9/11. The events have come under intense scrutiny. In the short time since the incident, the press has, as is their right, been exploring every possible cause or means of motivation.
 
The assailant used a gun. He was young. He was male. All those things being fact, the conversation quickly turned into a discussion about the influence of videogame violence in real life.
 

Even though only a matter of hours has passed since the shootings, the finger is being pointed. The flood gates have been opened. Before, it was just general ranting about the realistic nature of videogames, but now, there’s a name to tack on to the attack:


"counterstrike"


this is simply not the answer!...it does nothing to address real world police issues as well as school readiness for sudden violence, blaming games is the lowest common denominator and is a view into ignorant minds.

[THEKATZ*{MEOW}*]

Good input Morb.  My point as well.  There is nothing going to prevent a murder unless the murderer gets killed first. 

im sorry eve i cant agree with you here:

its all too easy to draw lines in the sand and say this or that is evil, while the act itself can be classified as wicked, the man himself was a quiet loner.......

my opinion is no .... we must engage in massive social and political change ,change that allows us to realistically apply solutions to pinpoint and remove
these threats from our children and our populations, IMHO gun control is a first step in this fight, the availablity of a handgun off the shelf is one of the
largest contributors to this sort of violence, a lone looser who can buy a gun is a real threat...but with out the gun he is just a lone looser........

just my 2cents

I will stand by the idea that evil exist.  There is argument about this I am sure but to deny that evil exist is to deny I have a God.
I honestly believe, Instinct, that the further away from God this country gets, the worse it will get.

I am with you on what is this deal with killing children or the innocent killing period.  But children and schools, this is rock bottom evil.  People are calling it a tragedy when it is a MASS MURDER.  Gawd, a tragedy is the wreck on Interstate 5 with fatalities.   
A loner is correct, but he had an agenda and he carried it out.  No criminal record, he checked out and was able to purchase and walk out with a gun. 
Guns cannot be removed from the market, it is our unalienable right that cannot be changed.  I do not favor gun control but you are correct, something has to be done, but not to me, or my neighbor, we are the good guys so why let this punk and all the other punks mess up the rights of good citizans to purchase, own any legal weapon we want?  So that the criminals have them only?  Not in my house.
Okay, there is answers for this I am sure but what? 

[NighEve*{MEOW}*]

its all too easy to draw lines in the sand and say this or that is evil, while the act itself can be classified as wicked, the man himself was a quiet loner
he didnt just wake up monday morning and become "evil" , his actions are methodic, he purchased a weapon days before, wich indicates a premeditated
plot and is first sign that this man had snapped somehow ,that his ability to reason or his ability to process adult emotions had left him.

As I said we have softened the word evil and say it cant be that.

Then define evil, if that is not evil?  His ability to reason?  He chained the doors.  That is evil.
I agree he dint just wake up and become evil.  He knew exactly what he was doing.  it wasnt a crazy rampage.   What ever reasons he had for doing this..loner, jilted or lied to. We have all been there and not shot 32 people.  Crazy? maybe but that does not change the fact that this was evil plain and simple.

Sorry brother, nothing you said indicates that was not an evil act.

 

[Darsus]

Why is it that every time an idiot does something with a gun, the first thing people think of is GUN CONTROL. The only thing gun control will do is keep the guns out of the citizens that understand and know how to use a gun safely. It would make my home not safe!!! Gun Control will only make the black market more successful. How about a national database that prevents someone that has been  convicted of a crime not eligible to buy a gun...wait that part of making it illegal for a criminal to purchase or even own a gun is a law on the books. What there is lacking is that national database.

Why idiots can go and shoot kids is because it is the one place that Police will not just storm in. The goal is to save lives and storming into a school with a mad man holding hostages or murdering children will only result in more lives taken. There is good in this world and there is evil in this world. There is one quote that sums some of this up..."there will always be wars and rumors of wars", and when an individual takes it upon him or herself to commit these atrocities that is war.

Here's a question why do women stay in the home and with a man that continuously beats them..because they are afraid. That could be the answer to the first question. Those individuals that take a life just because their day is not going right for them...are COWARDS.

People want to blame the White House...try blaming those that are to stupid to vote, try blaming those that are in Congress (they are they ones that make the laws). Even if the President vetoes a bill it can still become a law if Congress would get off their begeesies and come together for a common cause. Congress has the power not the President.

[INSTINCT]

yes evil in the fact that the result of the action is horror and mass murder.

this is evil, but we cant always paint evil with the wide brush that we do, we must a a modern society get to the bottom of just what causes this
and what can we do to stop it.


Tk i dont think the impression was or is to deny your god , or deny evil, if i define evil it is the evil one himself, this is the corruption of the human spirit
and the able mind., and the reluctance of us as a whole to get the job done and protect our schools.

let me put forth a 10 point scale for starters:

1.effective gun control...(all gun purchases are registered to local law enforcement databases.)
2.train and arm a school security administrator or executive.
3. fully equip all police officers to engage mad gunmen at will.
4.mandate from the fed level that all schools have a panic button ,when pressed indicates to police a gunman is at work.
5.federally mandate school drills for sudden violence and gunmen.
6.mandate metal detectors at all schools.
7.fully investigate the "school " rampage phenomenon and find effective countermeasures
8.mandate emergency action plans for all schools and buisinesses ,to allow for modern day real world violence
9.drill local law enforcment on all local schools and threr layouts , entrances and exits and floor plans, and what if type scenarios
10.gun control gun control gun control.

lets begin by at least

train and arm a school executive against sudden violence.  at least a vest and a gun.

outfit all cop cars with helmets , armor, and mp"5s to allow direct and immediate action against a gunman.

tk diving into the right to bear arms is entirely another argument you know my position , while nessesary 100 years ago , i believe is harmfull now
the few wackos canot be allowed guns...how do we dicriminate the wacko from the normal citizen?...you cant ..so ban all handgun sales outright.


my right to a safe and law abiding society trumps the  right to fetish and buy guns..i see daily the effect the right to sell guns has had on large populations
in todays society those who fetish the gun and marvel at its usage themselves are part and parcel to social violence, you cannot recocile faith in a god and then
load a gun..the two just dont mix, its not about keeping guns away from law abiding ppl , but keeping them out the hands of kids,wackos and thugs,
the simple fact that guns are widely available makes the police mans job that much more dangerous, i dont own a gun, and yet if anyone comes in my home he will leave in pieces , i can settle with a shotgun for property defense in rural areas but in cities with police they should be banned outright.the frothing at the mouth over "who will take away my guns" is disgusting and those ppl need adult education , we will always be seen as american animals so long as this wild west self defense bullshit continues, no other modern society feels the need to as we do,and yet they have a safer society to live in.we cant sit here and deplore the arab gun culture and at the same time arm oursleves--hypocrites it make us.
there is a very viable constitiutional argument against the right to bear arms,and the environment it was written,at a time when the intention was to "TAKE UP ARMS" the modern day equivalent is not one and the same!..period!!  anyone that cannot understand the correct application of constitutional law will miss this point , our laws are constructed to flex and for changes to be made to fit the times, if you could go back and talk to thomas jefferson and tell him about your right to bear arms--he would scold you and admonish you by informing you the "intent" was to "take up arms" by reading the federalist papers a much wider
scope of original intent can be found, and it shedds better light on the wording of the constitiution. and as it stands now you have "taken up arms" each governor has at his disposal a guard ,wich was what was denied to early americans and is the thrust of the right to bear arms.


either way im not at stopping gun sales..just handgun sales..the ones that can be concealed and used against police,children and the innocent,the ones that kids and thugs get there hands on ,quite simply put if we had done so this maniac would have not been able to gun down 32 people . at least no so eassily and so simply,sooner or later we will have to come to grips with this gun issue untill then im saddened to say more children and innocent people will die ,the brain fart who sits at home and admires his collection of weapons must be protected.

the lord hath said  "those who live by the sword -shall die by the sword"   and in later days " those will say what is good is bad-and what is bad is right" 

any christain will instantly understand these words , the commandment "thou shall not kill" isnt good for one but not for all ...it is for all mankind to adhere to
these core christian and judaic values absolutly cannot be reconciled with gun fetish.

[Morbius{MEOW}]

Banning the sale of hand guns will only keep the guns away from those that desire to own them and never use them to shoot at anything that can bleed.  The problem lies in the individual, not the appliance. If you take away the guns, it will be bladed weapons, it will be explosives ( which you can learn to make from the items under your sink just by looking on the net).  Crimes of this nature are called Malla En Se - Evil in and of itself.  While I do agree that there should be a nationwide database of each firearm made, not only sold, so that the weapon can be tracked from the manufacturer to the shop that sold it and then who was they last person to buy it, legally, I cannot see the government banning handguns.
I was born and raised on firearms. I respect them and what they can do if misused.  I never wnet sports hunting, if i pulled the trigger, it was someones next meal. I cannot condone killing for SPORT.
we used to joke around about gun control - back before these issues that face us today came to pass. We used to say - want to stop gun violence - give EVERYONE a gun. Then everyone else KNOWS that everyone else has a weapon.   While not practicle, or even sane in today's society, it just shows have far we have fallen in the past decade.
Unfortunately gun control in this contry comes down to this.
Ban the guns and only the criminals will have them. The market for illegal weapons in this country is too broad and deep.  We have gangbangers buying fully automatic Ak-47's when no law abiding citizen can get their hands on them without a collectors permit or a federal firearms permit.
The are carrying .357 magnums, .44 magnums, etc and the police are limited in what they can carry. 9mm, 10mm, .40 , .45, .38, or a .357 that shoots .38 longs. Many police departments only permit the duty officers to carry a 12 gauge in the car and some of them have to be secured in the TRUNK!!!
The criminals will always have the edge because the politicians are afraid of not getting re-elected and they will NOT cut the ties that bind the hands of local law enforcement so that they can handle these idiots. They will not allow them to carry more firepower than the bad guys because it is a bad thing, someone else may get hurt. Hmm, lets see, blow a hole in a guy big enough to drive a truck through so that he cat get past you and kill someone else and know that one other person may get hurt, or keep hitting him with a 9mm and hope he drops before he can kill 7 or eight more people.  While no sane person wants another to get hurt,  sometimes cacca happens.
Mabey if the bad guys knew that if the local cop pulls the trigger on him he is going to at least loose an apendage, mabey it would cut down on the violence.  But as it stands now, most of the gun violence revolves around children, both as victims and actors. Why, like darsus said, we dont want to go charging into a school with the guns a blazing, but it's children that are doing it becuase they honestly believe that no matter what, they are children and if the polcie shoot them and they survive, they are gonn SUE SUE SUE SUE becuase they cop shot a defenseless child who was not aware of his actions becuase he is not an adult BFS!!!!! And unfortuantely I hear it all the time. Grab a 16 or 17 year old for fighting, or underage drinking and the first words out of their mouths are " YOU CANT TOUCH ME, I AM A JUVENILE. CUFF ME AND MY FAMILY WILL SUE!!"   That is the mentalilty of the kids today and that is what they believe.
Want to stop the gun violence in the younger generation - publicly execute every person convicted of a gun crime.  No leathal injection, nothing easy - Grab a hunk of rope, find an Oak tree and let em hang - and dont put a bag over their heads either. They had no respect for life, do not show them any in death.
While I believe it is the individuals right to decide if they want to own a gun or not, keep it their decision but make it hard as hell to get one without a background check every year, and a national registry. Then make it a death sentence to commit a crime with a gun - with no possibility of an appeal to a bleeding heart appeals court like the one in San Francisco - the land of fruits and nuts. 
ok, I went on long enough.  Just been along time since I got into a deep discussion without someone getting all peeved LOL. ( sniff sniff I love this squad ) LOL

[NighEve*{MEOW}*]

this is evil, but we cant always paint evil with the wide brush that we do, we must a a modern society get to the bottom of just what causes this
and what can we do to stop it.

We agree then. I thnk we should paint evil with a broad brush..but i also think we dont cal it what it is at times..and more often these days.